7.13.2005

Discourse Rules

How do we acquire the societal rules? How do you think these rules relate to grammar rules? Explain and give whys

147 comments:

Anonymous said...

In acquairing discourse rules conversation is so important.While we listen to the native speaker of english.We gasp the rules uncounciously or counciously.Learning is already a result of a complex interaction between the social enviroment~where the language spoken~and learner's internal mechanism.Also scaffholding is important in this issue.It is a way building the discourse.To sum up L2 acquisition is a human social activitiy so the rules are acquired by communication.

Anonymous said...

Tuğba Çakır said
In acquairing discourse rules conversation is so important.While we listen to the native speaker of english.We gasp the rules uncounciously or counciously.Learning is already a result of a complex interaction between the social enviroment~where the language spoken~and learner's internal mechanism.Also scaffholding is important in this issue.It is a way building the discourse.To sum up L2 acquisition is a human social activitiy so the rules are acquired by communication.

Anonymous said...

Akgül dartılmak said
peoples are social beings also languages are too..So social factors effect second language acquisition but not directly.When we learn a language we dont only learn ıt also we learn ıts culture,social life,history.However there are social rules which native speakers obey when they communicate but sometimes L2 learner behave differently and ıt can be thought an error.These discourse rules can be transfered from L1 to L2 by communication.

fatih ışık said...

You can speak,you can argue everything with somebody freely but,you should know the social rules in which you live.You should obey these rules.For ex: When you translate a paragraph in orginal text from English to Turkish;you try to translate the sentences by adapting to your first language and you can change its meaning in second language.It is the same in comminication,too.l2 learner sometimes speak by taking into consideration the rules of his native language and he can change grammar rules,you can understand his speech because of meanning is convenient,but you can see that he makes an error because his speech doesn't obey the grammar rules. We shouldn't forget second language acquision is human activity and when we learn it,we have also an opion about its social rules,culture for learning it clearly and rightly.It is useful for acquiring due to the fact that you can analyze the rules between your mother language and second language.

meleknazir said...

Each person lives in a community and each community has its own rules.These rules arrange social life.Also language is affected by these rules.Foods can be given as an example.Each social community has its own culture and food is one of the part its culture.For example 'yoğurt' is a name of turkish and the other communities don't know 'yoğurt'so they use this word as 'yoghurt'.Another example; in müslim community, people use the word of mosque more than a christian community.If a country is rich,they don't use words of economic such as monetary problem,economic crisis.Nobody can live out of a social life and languages are ruled by social life that's why everything which affects to the social life,also affects to the language people use.

duygu dinçer said...

Discourse Rules

When babies come to the world, they don’t know anything. They always cry and cry...Because they don’t know what they do. So they learn eveything from their parents. (All of societal rules, patterns of behaviour...etc). Therefore there is an interaction between people and society (specially between baby and family ). Parents also help their babies. They explain every word very patiently and say every word repeatedly untill the child learns.

Children have information about some things but this information is not enough to make upper things. So parents try to reinforce their children from lots of ways.

There are lots of rules in the society. Most of issues have different rules to protect their existence For example, law rules, school rules, class rules, library rules etc. If we talk about the class rules like this: silence, student & student interaction in group, light, to listen while a person are talking, temperature, to come class/lesson on time, giving attention etc...

So every moment has some special rules, needs. We can use term it called “discourse”.Discourse is our needs or context needs at the moment.

We imagine that we go to the primary school. When we enter the class first time, we don’t know what rules are there. Even we don’t know rule’s meaning. So teacher teaches every rules about class life. If we don’t understand a concept or an event, she/he makes some simplifications in every event. For example she speaks aloud, and talks very slowly. If we explain this related with grammer rules, we can give this example:

While we are talking a person who comes from another country, if we can’t understand him/her and we say “Sorry, I couldn’t understand you” he/she makes some simplifications in her/his talking. If he/she normally uses long sentences, she/he starts to use shorter sentences to make himelsf/herself understand when we don’t understand him/her.

Duygu Dinçer

hüseyin türkmen said...

I think that we acquire the societal rules by imitating our environment-especially by watching the people who are close to us.-For example when a child does something which is wanted to be done, the people who are close to him/her(father, mother...etc) approve the behavior by saying ‘Well done, you are wonderful.’ But when the child does something which is unwanted to be done, the people who are close to him/her(father, mother...etc) disapprove the behavior by saying ‘ It is a shame. Don’t do it again.’ So the child begins to learn the social norms and the rules to which s/he has to obey.
Grammar is also acquired-learned in this way. When the child uses desirable grammatical form, s/he gets a positive reinforcement and vice versa. It is something like culture delivering from one generation to another one.

müjgan çalışkan said...

Children see their parents as a model.They imitate what their parents speak and act.When children do something wrong,their parents punish them or do not reinforce that unwanted behaviours of children.When they do something possitive,their parents reinforce children's wanted behaviour.Culture and the social environment shape our language and our social rules that we obey in the society.
After starting school,children start to acquire social rules of that society in time. At school they learn what to say and what not to say,how react people in different statutes, how to communicate with people. In short they acquire discourse rules.
When children start to learn L2, there will be different discourse rules in language of native speakers.You are speaking something possitive to a native speaker of that language, but it can be understood something negative or they can react in a negative way.
While interacting with native speakers,watching films in L2,reading or listening the contexts in L2, we can get their discourse rules and grammatical rules.
In classroom there is an interaction between teacher and students.While teacher is speaking to the students,s/he should speak in a simple way. Vocabulary and structures that teacher chooses should be simple and appropriate for SS' level (foreignertalk).SS can make ungrammatical sentences while learning.Then teacher should scaffold and try to change their unwanted behaviour in a possitive way (i.g. student says "no come" then teacher correct that sentence and say "Don't come").

Tansel Sarıbeyoğlu said...

We acquire social rules with the help of our environment. According to the people's responses a child shapes his behaviours. For example if we give a candy to a child we expect him to say 'thank you ' . If he doesn't , his mother tells him ' you must thank people when they give you presents '. By this way he learns to thank.

If a child's parents reinforce him when he makes correct things, he wants to make the same thing again. In contrast, ıf the parents punish him because of his behaviour then the child learns that he musn't do the same ting again.

I think learning grammar rules has the same process with learning social rules. When a child makes correct sentences he gets good response but ıf he does wrong, maybe he is punished by the teacher. If they produce grammaticly correct sentences, they are reinforced.

Another way of acquiring both social and grammatical rules is to repeat. A child repeats his mother's behavioursto learn the social rules and a student repeats his teacher in order to acquire the second language's grammar rules.

erdem inciguz said...

At birth human mind is like an empty table, lack of the knowledge of how to behave. I mean ,of course, the conscious behaviours of the child. What forms these conscious permanent behaviours is the environment of the child. Babies have tendency to imitiate everything arund them. Therefore their actions begin to obey the social rules of the family first with the help of reinforcements and punisments if applied truly; because a child cannot differenciate what is right or wrong. Then slowly but increasingly, the child becomes a socially approved one. The case is the same for grammer acquisition process. Again family's directories play a great role on using right words, combining words together and putting them in the right order. Another point is the different usage of grammer. Word order isn't the same for all languages, because of the attention paid on situations is variable. The English are interested in the person and the action, so they stert with S then V. On the other hand people from east are a bit sensitive. That's why they put the object at the beginning (as the subject is usually hidden O is first) For them the least important one is V, and it is at the end.

M-rah Bozdemir said...

We acquire both societal and grammar rules subcosciously.we begin to learn both when we're baby.our parents ask us to use the correct language and acceptable societal rules.when we did wrong they warn us and try to teach correct form.
on the other hand societal rules affect grammar rules.we cannot use argo or vulgar language when we interact with each other.we are,as Turks,respectful to the foreigner,so we use 'siz' instead of 'sen'(plural form you instead of singular you)
As a conclusion,both are constant or it takes time to change them.and societal rules has an effect on grammar rules or language use

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Anonymous said...

I think people live in a vicious circle in sense of societal customs. I want to draw attention to the traditions that we have to be dependent on in our permanent residences. I mean not only countries but also regions, cities, even small towns in the same country. These customs are for the most part; moral values, communal rules ,also familial customs. The key word is “whereabouts” which effects directly to the discourse. It is a simple reasoning but it is so obvious that language is flexible and have a potential to be shaped. The architet is human of course. To him; Needs are the tools to build up the language. These needs are of course different from universal needs. For example villages in Turkey has a custom about working together in certain seasons which is called “imece”. This social activity which s peculiar to villagers has its own vocabulary and own grammar. These needs come out thanks to their customs. In Antarctica “snow” has a different number of 30 meaning. However it changes according to the previous utilization. So the master architet of the art “Discourse” is culture.
İt is everywhere , wherever we go somewhere different we will be witnessed this relationship which is something unique and distinctive for humanbeing.

Ismail Kurban

Elif MANIŞ said...

We acquire first rule from our parents,and family, because it is our first social environment.while we are growing we learn the rules which come from our sociaty, so in the other sociaty there can be different rules.Also we learn from the kindergarden, school,and when we start to work we learn from our job (office).We see the rules, repeat them; our parents, and experianced people reinforce and scaffold us, sometimes we learn what we should not do by punishment,so all of them are some kind of interaction.Some social rules are written(in school, job...), but generally we don't see any writting,because there is not any school which teach the social rules, we acquire them from the environment.
There are many kind of sociaties on the world that have their own rules.While we
learn a foreign language, we also learn their culture, and their social rules indirectly or sometimes directly.For example: the researcers say that the sttudents who study on the foreign languages, are more toleranter, and flexible than the others, so they are effected from the languages' cultures, and they try to understand the others.

The social rules,and grammer rules effect each others.For example : you don't talk samely with your parents, teachers,students,boss, or friends.Sometimes we use formal grammer, sometimes informal; in some situation we are relax , sometimes not.
In some situations we use some chunks,but they may not be suitable in the other language, also they may not use this chunk; such as we say "bardaktan boşanırcasına yağmak", but in English , they say:"it rains like cats and dogs"
Briefly, socio-cultural rules,and language effect each others, so if they effect language normally , they effect grammer,and grammer rules.

(Thank you my lovely teacher for everything, especially for the pperfectlesson. Believe me I never forget you,and your lesson.It was a greatful experiance!)

altan çarıkçıoğlu said...

altan said...
Happy birthday to meee!!!!
First the 15th of july was my birthday and none of my friends from summer school knows about that:)
Anyway there must be a relation between each other that Mr Tuncer Can asked it:)
We acquire the sociel rules like we do while acquiring the language.We observe and imitate our parents' behaviours and thought discipline for the actions they come face to face.So we can say that a lyer's kid haves the chance of being a big lyer much more than the others.Poor families' children are really strict about the sociel rules more than the others who are the rich ones'children,so did their parents use to be...
There is a great realation between language and society.For example while Engilsh call pavement Americans call it the side walk.That means Americans are more casual than the strict-ruled English.English are usually serious about the whole events while the Americans prefer bieing casual and take it easy,they are kewl,u know:)My first example was all about the vocabulary but we can see many for the grammar rules.English like speaking with a great care of grammar,Americans don't even use Present Perfect for it is waste of time and tiring for brain.Their whole aim is the understanding of the person they face to face.Grammar is just a tool they use to manage it.Americans' attitude to grammar is that-the less grammar they use,the more succesful they are if they have managed their conversation...

ahmet çıkar said...

Till his social maturity,baby experiences an indispensable contuniouty of remoteness to where he is;apart from crying to be fed,to be loved,to be taken account etc....When the time for his improval receivers is up;then starts a societical identity process...For example with the help of mum or dad he acquires the capability of toileting and when reinforced steadily that will end up with the permanence of behavior,the rule will have been taught...The case of making friends is also something to be explained with the acquisition of rules caught during babybood...You feel yourself limited when you meet someone in different sex...You form sentences grammatically cleaned,socially balanced and personally a bit ^^lie-sauced^^...to me,you create yourself copying from the mirror of society...what it says is automatically correct so:YOU ARE NOT WHAT YOU ARE.....

medetbek said...

Think about a student who comes to university for the first time. He firstly learns societal rules of class. He learns how to address to lecturer and his friends. I have a great experience about it. when I came to university I saw that my classmates addressing our lecturer as HOCAM. I repeated this word for 3 4 times. As a result I learned initial societal rule of class environment with the help of c. While learning societal rules people make mistakes and errors. Mistakes, errors are corrected by their environment.
Similar to societal rules grammar rules are also learned in similar way. Rules are first given by environment, teacher then if student makes mistakes they are corrected by environment.
Acquisition of societal rules is similar to acquisition of grammar rules. They are both systematic.
In both learning there are imitation, positive and negative reinforcements, feedbacks.

serdal said...

happy birthday to Altan:))
we acquire societal rules by watching,imitating, and trying it as language is a part of our culture. So of course it will be different in different societies. And of course language is affected by these societal rules.
Each society has own cultural aspects and words for this and we get them by imitating and trying and finding the right way
serdal uyaniker

Anonymous said...

bahar yüksel
We acquire the first social rules by the help of our family,they simply teach us how to act in basic situations and when we join a group we act by the light of these acquirements.After joining the group,the rules we've larned before take a form and we add new rules to our character.This new and shaped rules help us to keep on living.
According to what my friends said,there's a strong relation between the social rules and grammar but I do not think so.Firstly,social rules are acquired but the grammar rules are learned and they do not take a shape according to the reinforcements,because they are rules and have no chance to develop or change.
(derste ne konuştuğumuzu hatırlayamadım açıkçası ve arkadaşlarımın yazdıkları yorumdan çok özet gibi geldiği için
onlardan da pek yararlanamadım.)

CeReN ArSeVeN said...

First of all I want to mention that the societal rules are not the same all over the world and so their relation to grammar rules too.But if we are talking about our country and our societal rules their relation with the grammar rules will be different.
We acquire the societal rules from the societal charachters in daily life,for example;from our families,teachers,etc.At first we just imitate and adapt the society then we quest the reasons why they are acting like they act and why we act like them.If there is some rules we don't like,we still obey them in people,because of their being majority.
Grammar rules are the same from some aspects with the societal rules.There is a "Grammar",it was here before us,it is here with us and it will be here after we've gone.We first,like babies,imitate these rules,try to memorize them to be able to use.But again in time,we understand the whys in deep and we choose our selections and according to these selection we identify our ways in learning.But here is a majority too,the people who use the grammer as a chain of rules and so we don't speak as we wish but as they could understand.But as I mentioned at first,these rules are like that in our country,but they can be completely different in an other country.Because of their living and learning differences.
1st lang. acq. in every country can be nearly the same but to acquire the 2nd one,it's maybe not an acquisition,it is "learning",so when learning a new language you have to learn it's societal rules to understand those people.If they are an ego-centered society,they put the subject at the beginning of the sentence or if not they put it any other place.Societal living style and life can effect the grammar rules from these kind of aspects.
In addition to these,the words use in a language are the pieces of the grammar too and a society's economic life style or their history,etc. effects the words it include.These words are actuallt the reasons that form the societal rules of this society in relation with past experiences.
I told the whys that I want to count down in a bit fixed way,sorry but I just want to say that " society is the reason of their grammar style ". :)

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ibrahim akkaya said...

In my opınıon,lıke language rules,societal rules are acquired by imitating, and interacting to communıty.When we are born we don't know anythıng about the rules.However,as the tıme pass we get used to the envıronment,watch the people around us and start to do the thıngs they do.As we grow up we start to go to school and meet some new people,teachers and new frıends,and get ınto an ınteractıon wıth them.Lıvıng among them,we get some more rules,we are ınflunced maybe but ın the end we acquıre the new rules.Among these new rules, there are grammer rules too.

hakki incecik said...

I think we acquire the social rules as we acquire L1, because language is related with the culture of the acquirer. We can not seperate culture and language. For example: when you are learning L2 you are also learning the culture of the target language. In addition to this, in every culture there are verbal rules and this rules also change depending to the culture and the perspective of the people that live in that culture. And also, for the grammatical rules same thing happen. The sequence of the subject, verb, object change depending on the perspective of the native speakers of that culture.
In conclusion, discourse rules and the grammamtical rules are both change according to the context, form according to the perspective and shape by the culture.

derya turan said...

While defining the language,we say language is tool for explaining the feelins,thoughts,willings.In other words the language is mirror of belief,thought,accumulation. Language's abundance or poverty is depented on culture's abundance or poverty.language's limit is determined by culture.The language has lived the phase ,culture or society living lastly if we know langugage we can understand what happened to society in the past and how got accumulation.Every language has special to itself proverbs,idioms,terse saying,because of different beliefs,views,opportunities,orientation.Likewise it is different the way of explanation their anger pleasure,fear,painful,love and respect.Some language's abstract explanation develops,some language concrete...

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Anonymous said...

3231050063

Human is a social creature ,social rules have been ınevıtable for humaninty and all people learn these rules wıth the help of theır envıronment.And language always has been a part of the socıal life. An ordınary chıld learns hıs l1 wıth the help of the his famıly always they correct hıs mistakes when chıld says somethıng a sound a word lıke ın hıs language all of the famıly members reflect theır happıness and chıld start to learnıng somethıng l thıng progress of the socıal rules lıke tahat ıf you lıve ın a socıal you learn these rules help of the other people ıf you make somethıng otsıde the rules you wıll see the reactıon of the people and you wıll say aha thıs ıs wrong so l can say that the common poınt ıs between the two thıngs (rules of the grammar anda socıal) teacher yes envıronment ıs your teacher ın progress of them

Anonymous said...

As far as I understand,I will try to explain something.People are social beings and their being social has a relationship with the language they own.Every language has a social side but does not have an effect directly to second language.In native language,there may be some social rules that are more diffirent than second language.If we obey social rules of our first language while learning second language this can be rather wrong.The wrongs may be prevented by conservation.3231050053 zeynep gökoğlan

Anonymous said...

human is a part of the social life.and his environmet effect him.when baby born,his environment begin to effect him and also his language.people have to obey the rules of their culture.so their language shapes their culture.when baby come to the world first he learn his first words to his father or mother and when he begin to grow,his languge shape according to his environment.for example:in our culture when someone whois very older come to our house,we generaly kiss his hands.ıf we don t kisss his hand our family say that 'it is shame'.so we learn that our behaviour is not accurate.but when foreign people read this sentence maybe he laugh.becausein his society there is no similar rules so this sentence is comic for him.finally language learning change according to culture to culture.and languge is acquired by the help of cominication to our environment.

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Anonymous said...

Fırat Kaya
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First of all , we are not alone in the society and share it with different people. Just as how we learnt the rules of the school, the same process will be followed in the society. We acquire the societal rules from the society itself and its elements. these elements can be familty school environment and all the people we may get into relation. We learn the rules from the very early age,we play games and they rules .. ıf someone is making sth wrong when playing soccer , then he will be punished, or will be sacked off. This process will make the child learn to obey the rules or the child puts onto a hot thing his hand will be hurt then he will acquire that this will harm him ıf he does it again and because of that he will restrict himself AND these rules play a role on our grammar rules because we can say that language is like a society formed of many different people and culture and ideas and rules..and what makes the society stand straight is what makes the language a living instrument--these are societal rules and grammar rules. ı think that ıf the society has a homogenic form then the grammar may formed in a shape that can answer the needs of the peopele who makes the lsociety homogenic. For instance the Arabic society is too strict about its rules and the grammar of Arabic is complex and hard for newcomers !

Anonymous said...

The type of our communication is mostly shaped by the community we live in as difference in a same language spoken in different regions and society & cultures, these thing emerges the social rules of the language, besides when we look upon the topic in another aspect; a worker can not communicate with his/her boss just in the same way with his/her companions.

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